And yes, I have have heard of at least three of those bands. One of them (Hungry Ghosts from York) played the BBC Introducing Stage at Leeds Festival this year - but they got no marks at all in their Surface Unsigned heat. The band immediately above them on that night got 143. It’s tough at the bottom, I’d say!

Could you name the bands? I did look at your Northern site a while ago and saw that Joseph’s Well was listed for round one. It’s a shame that the site doesn’t at least present the names and myspace details of the bands in a prominent way. I must say, I completely missed all the publicity at the time. Leeds is a very busy place, so it is quite likely that I missed your advertising at the time. Joseph’s Well has gone into a decline in recent years and (as far as I know) is a venue where at least one promoter is running something like the deeply unpopular “pay to play” model.

Did you advertise through http://www.leedsgigs.co.uk? Did you approach Sandman, Vibrations or the The Leeds Guide? Did you use Frontline Media to do some small posters? Did you drop a message into http://www.leedsmusicforum.co.uk? I’m sure you did hold some gigs. What I’m saying is that the recognition and exposure that your events give to bands has not been apparent as far as the broader Leeds music community is concerned.

I wonder which BBC Unsigned presenters and producers you contacted while you were in the area? Did any of your bands figure in the lists they put forward for Maida Vale sessions or major festival appearances? I could name several who were. These are artists who, because they were good, have done the sessions, have been played on national radio and who have done the Festival this year - either on the BBC Introducing Stage or on bigger stages.

I recommend that for 2009 you spread the word a bit more effectively. Let the large and thriving music community know. Talk to Alan Raw and all the other people doing excellent supportive work and see what (if anything) you can contribute.

And, as I said earlier, I would heartily recommend all young bands in the City get in touch with professional promoters like John Keenan and Futuresound and Bad Sneakers who (along with all their other work) put on regular nights for early career bands. They should get to know other bands, look at teh diy community (exceptionally strong in Leeds) and find or create good gigs as they get more confident. If they have something to offer then other promoters and Leeds-based labels will be onto them pretty quickly.

I believe that if you go further out from Leeds into small towns and more isolated areas you will find kids who don’t know much who will be interested in your scheme. And Leeds itself will have plenty of bands who are so unappealing to audiences and promoters that they can’t get decent gigs anymore and who feel frustrated and would see your outfit as some kind of salvation - a quick leg-up to the fantasy world of rock and roll and the tour bus. Many of these artists seem to me to need advice - stop day dreaming, and start enjoying their rehearsals and occasional pub gigs.

I really think you could be using your enthusiasm and your organisational skills to do something a lot more productive than recruiting gullible hopefuls to a project that clearly has made no impact on the world so far. The hundreds and hundreds of bands who have spent time and their friends’ money trailing off to vanity events that most music people seem to mistrust and avoid need to know that there are better ways.

I notice that you still haven’t been able to refer to any credible music press notices for your events. Even the smallest band in Leeds has an NME, Kerrangg, Drownedinsound, Sandman or Leedsmusicscene quote to embellish their claims to genius. As a keen self-publicist you seem surprisingly short of quotable, verifiable endorsements for ether your events or for the bands who have played at your events.

There is only one battle/competition in town that means anything: Futuresound. A long-established local promoter picks 30 bands from demos for a series of 10 gigs, and 6 bands are chosen from them by judges to play at the Leeds/Reading Festival. All of them get paid for the Futuresound gigs and audiences are large, enthusiastic and knowledgeable. No one travels more than they normally do for a night in the City. It’s all about music, and the reward for those picked is to get two more good gigs. No one imagines this is going to mean stardom or anything like it. No one is under the illusion that being picked proves you are “better”. Wild Beasts (now with a fine album on the Domino label) are one of many to have been turned down. Any bands with illusions about the industry quickly meet more experienced hands and things roll along nicely. And there’s a good old moan and groan in the local discussion forum about “fixing” - almost all with tongue firmly in cheek.

If things are a bit less transparent and the organisers are less well known at a personal level, where the costs are higher, the promises are less realistic and there is so little quality control on the entrants it’s easy to see how the situation reported in this blog could become vexed. It’s easy to see, too, how a couple of pissed off parents (I have reason to believe that’s who Rockangel and The disgruntled Dad are) can feel outraged at the way that rock and roll values seem to play out in real life. I can share their frustration too at the organiser’s preference for glamorised presentation rather than clear and realistic information. (where are the postal address and the telephone number on the website?) Similarly naff are little things like the “BBC Journalist” who seems to review all their gigs with the same breathless praise, and the extravagant presentation of the utterly redundant rock and roll dream conveyed by the whole sorry mess.

I don’t think that anyone needs to be surprised if questions are asked about why one band appears in a second final after what seems to have been a year’s association (of some kind) with the organising company. Being fed up at not being chosen is normal, but when things don’t look as clear as they should have been and information is either suppressed or never given I can understand a feeling of unfairness getting a hold, and genuine feelings of being messed around being expressed.

I can understand too why the clumsy attempt at shutting you up was your main concern once it had happened and your gentle suggestion that Rockangel was looking a bit loony. (my take on it was that she was thoroughly outraged and understandably frustrated)

However, my contribution would be to suggest that the pitching of such an event at naïve bands is a cynical way of making small amounts of money from fantasies and delusions. It’s a vanity business that no one needs and no one benefits from. My belief is that any genuine industry professional who wants to help new bands should set up as a promoter or agent and pay the bands they book, or else take on a couple of decent bands to manage. Surface Unsigned is peddling dreams to vulnerable egos. It might be legal, but it doesn’t get my vote as any kind of public service. I would strongly advise bands to get involved in the nearest thing they have to a local scene. Or start building one if none exists. The BBC is being very supportive these days through BBC Introducing (I declare an interest here in that I did a fair bit of (unpaid) writing this year about the BBC Introducing Stage at Leeds Festival. http://www.whisperinandhollerin.com is one place to find some of it. (Put BBC Introducing into the search option).

All the best.

I don’t know it that’s helpful or even relevant. I’m certainly not drawing any sort of conclusion because I don’t have all the information. I’m just saying.

So he has no basis for answering your question either way.

However, from his experience he seems to be under the impression that the judging is all above board.

A bit of friendly advice - when you start to hear only what you want to and twist peoples words (whether you’ve got a point or not - I honestly don’t know), you start to look like a loon.

Thank-you for your candid response.
My interpretation of your reply, is that in the cold light of day you wouldn’t be able to look a child/musician in the face and give him/her any assurances.
All you have been able to say is that you genuinely do not know and I’m afraid that is how I, and many others see it.

Cheers…….R

I really couldn’t on the grounds that I was not involved in any of the previous rounds. Surface as far as I am aware via a comment above list all of the previous judges. Surface also mentioned about txt voting? If enough texts were sent I guess a judges decision could have perhaps been over-ruled? Again, I can’t really comment as I’m not aware of the full procedure and wasn’t involved at any other stage. What did strike me though Rockangel is that Surface specified above that a judge was involved in some capacity with a band but that band didn’t go through on a couple of occasions to the next round, I think I have that right then surely it suggests impartiality from the said judge? You would have see that as convincing evidence and that’s certainly not a biased comment but if it is the truth then its a reasonable assumption to make. I hope you have found this informative.

I understand how it must make you feel when hearing allegations when you were in the competition or you know someone who was. I was actually really surprised by the high standard of finalists and can’t see why they wouldn’t have made the final on merit alone.

All the best;

Anthony

I previously knew about half of the judges and can confirm they had no connection with the bands. In the final, the bands were judged on merit, not ticket sales or any other information.

We had to choose 1st,2nd,3rd & 4th place on our sheets. The Chairmen weren’t my 1st but they were in my Top 4. As far as I’m aware, there was 1 point between 1st & 2nd place.

Other to really say there was no influence on our voting I suppose that’s it. But if you have any questions, please do ask and I will answer them. My email address is also on my blog link.

Anthony

As someone who has been involved with youth music for many years, my main concern has nothing to do with how much money Surface Unsigned are raking in. I am interested in morality and ethics. I have confidence that they will go from strength to strength. It’s a slick and effective business model, operating within a music industry that is frankly floundering for a whole raft of reasons, not least that there are now tens of thousands of bands out there, all desperately seeking to be ‘discovered.’
Its forefather, Emergenza is still operating I believe. Research has revealed that Emergenza appears to have a poor reputation with the blogging community in other parts of the world. It will be interesting to see if there are links, however tenuous to Surface Unsigned.
I worry that the festival has the ability to disguise itself as having refreshingly altruistic motives, masquerading as a heaven sent saviour to our beleaguered industry. I can detect no evidence of this and am concerned, from the contact I have had with many disgruntled bands, that their influence might indeed be damaging to the overall creative musical process.
For those who wish to take part in the ‘competition’ I wish them well. The events themselves, from my experience are very run well; even if the main thrust of the emphasis appears to be on how many tickets have been sold and the collection of the monies therein. Most bands feel very uncomfortable with the unscientific and the rather childish voting system that involves the raising of hands. As long as the judging is seen to be fair, bands will be happy.
From the outset I think that bands should be aware that, very roughly to reach the semi-final stage it is likely to cost their family and friends about £529 in ticket sales. This is based on the fact that a band sells 24 tickets per gig with an ascending cost ratio from £6.00-£8.00. That excludes the cost of text voting and all transport to and from the gigs and will involve 3 20 minute sets(Max.) Protests saying that the bands do not need to sell many tickets, I will ignore because I very much doubt if a band who only sold 2 tickets would go through to the next round: Whatever anyone else tries to say. Of course, many bands sell a lot more to try and get an advantage. I have seen bus loads turn up! The audiences tend to be friends, a few fans, mums, dads and sometimes even grannies, there to support their own bands with little interest in anyone else. Sad, I’m afraid, but very true and not very ‘cool’ either.
Impressionable youngsters and struggling bands should be aware that there is very rarely a quick fix to stardom and I advise them to be a little wary of anyone or anything that seeks to peddle in dreams………

So can I assume that bands that are in the semi finals and finals are associated with the most prestigious “non record label”, record label in the Midlands. They are judged by MAS records themselves or at the very least, judging colleagues or associates of JJM Studios, who must all be aware of this connection. What if bands are customers of JJM studios/ Alias surface unsigned, prior to the competitions.
This has just taken me less that 10 minutes to find these connections that Rock angel refers to and I do not like what I am finding.
Surface- you need to urgently reassure me and everybody else who reads these blogs. I sincerely hope there are no other shocks to find out there. People here are very nervous.
There is an odour out there and it is not a very nice one.

That seems like an odd way to phrase a complaint regarding a comment about a speech impediment to me.

I have just read the article about signed bands in the competition by rock angel. Is what he says true?
Please tell me he is wrong.

Anyone can email us at any time at info@surfaceunsigned.co.uk if they have any questions about Surface Unsigned.

http://www.birminghampost.net/birmingham-business/birmingham-business-news/media-marketing-news/2008/05/26/battle-of-the-bands-gets-caught-up-in-a-blog-war-65233-20973973/

[The rest of the comment has been deleted and an email has been sent to the commenter to explain why - Chris Unitt]

This is interesting stuff, I totally agree with it being something that bands can do ourselves, and it doesn’t take as much money or know how as you think. You certainly shouldn’t need to take £750 to cover costs.

You’ve not really addressed where the money goes though, if you could help shed a bit of light on that.

My concern (and the feeling expressed by some who have played) is that it seems like they’re exploiting the bands, getting loads of money, and offering very little of any real value at the end.

Again, if you can give examples of where bands have benefited substantially then please do.